The Don’ts of Dating: How to Lose a Good Thing in 8 Days (Part 2 of 2)
By Rahiel Tesfamariam (Urban Cusp) and Panama Jackson (Very Smart Brothas)
A "He Said/She Said" Analysis on Dating, Love and Relationships
What happens when you ask a group of women to tell you about some of the worst habits that men from their past have shared in common? They instantly become great writers, historians, and comedians who don’t shy away from exclamation marks and ALL CAPS. Here’s a short list of things guaranteed to drive 99.9% of good women away and how a man might justify doing these things, from two people who have been there (or who at least know someone who has).
(5) Having ex-factor double standards
Rahiel: He doesn’t think there’s any need for her to stay in touch with any significant others from her past. He can’t understand the point in doing so and is appalled that she would test his Black-man-gangsta in that way. Does she know who he is? Yes, as a matter of fact, she does! She knows that he’s the same dude that waits for all of his ex-girlfriends to hit him up on his birthday. The one who is Facebook friends with every girl he’s ever dated (and that being the reason he has yet to change his status to In A Relationship). And she also knows that he reinforces all of her insecurities by refusing to tie up loose ends from the past. On behalf of all women: ninja please!
Panama: Yeah, that is a double standard. I agree. I also don’t know any man who has that sincere belief that he can do that but his woman can’t. At all. But let’s delve into this one a little. So if I understand this one properly, this woman has decided that though her man practices double standards, won’t acknowledge her publicly, and seeks validation from other women in his life… she’s still going to try to build a relationship with this guy? What’s drugs my dealer? Well, this woman is enabling his behavior under the guise that one day he’s going to wake up and think to himself that he can’t ruin this beautiful thing with this woman he has. Except he’s never even remotely given her that indication. Yet, she stays. So he’s wrong but she’s stupid. Even Amber Rose dropped Kanye. Sometimes you have to know when to cut the ties.
(6) Wanting relationship perks without long-term responsibility
Rahiel: In his book, monogamy brought on the Black Death and marriage was the cause of the Great Depression. Perhaps that’s an exaggeration so let’s just say that he is “hesitant to commit.” This hesitation *clears throat* (phobia) is manifested by him threatening to leave every time the conversation gets “too serious” and hyperventilating every time she uses his name and the word “future” in the same sentence. While he doesn’t mind playing house every now and then, he wants it to be understood that the two of them are “just kicking it” or “building” or “seeing where this takes us.” Keep in mind that all of this amorphous rhetoric persists along with the expectation that the woman would offer her undivided adoration, time, and support (and perhaps even some X-rated late night memories). He wants all of the benefits without any of the long-term sacrifice, responsibility, and commitment that comes with the M-word. He’s making it clear that his body wants her, but his heart and mind are still unsure about her. This is equivalent to him having “I Take You for Granted” tattooed on his forehead.
Panama: Eh, I’m not buying this one. While there are definitely a significant number of “commitment phobic” men out there, it’s definitely not the majority. How else do we get such a high divorce rate unless we get a significant number of people still taking the leap in the first place? But forget marriage; let’s keep it in the dating realm. Look, men like the chase. This is a fact. And above all else, men really are afraid of becoming committed to the wrong woman. It’s not commitment that’s the problem; it’s being committed to the chick he hoped he’d never end up with that’s the problem. Only difference between men and women in this regard is that you all hitch your wagon to the train as soon as you determine that you like him. Perhaps if you all spent more time vetting the men you’re “building” with and “just kicking it” with, you all would understand where we’re coming from. I realize we have different concerns in relationships and all, but real talk, the man’s approach in this regard is way smarter than the woman’s. But again, it’s not even true anyway.
(7) Showing signs of patriarchal schizophrenia
Rahiel: One minute – he’s a back-up singer for Ne-Yo who knows all the words to “She Got Her Own” and “Miss Independent.” He loves that his woman is everyone else’s boss lady and brags about the fact that she is or has the potential to be the primary breadwinner. He’s more than happy to walk in her shadow as she takes the world by storm. And he stays thanking God for finally blessing him with a cowgirl that can handle a stubborn bull like him. But the NEXT minute (the minute he forgets to take his boy-get-your-mind-right medicine) – he’s reminding her who wears the pants in the relationship. He’s expecting her to cook and clean up afterwards. And he’s wondering how she’s going to wait on him hand and foot, birth a tribe called his children, and manage to maintain a size 2. But the one thing he’s consistent about despite all of his schizophrenic tendencies is that it’s okay to go half on paying for dinner. That right there – THAT she can count on! And while he may claim to be clueless on what she really wants; he should assume that she wants what all lovers want - consistency.
Panama: I don’t know this guy at all. I mean, I know he exists on Lifetime, but in real life, I don’t know this guy. I’m not saying that he doesn’t exist in real life, but how he manages to snag a woman is beyond me anyway. But this guy is wrong on all kinds of levels. And real talk, he probably comes from the hood. Which means this woman dated her a hood dude and got him to settle down. Except his version of settle down looked different than hers. He wants a wife and a mother. And I’ll bet that at some point she didn’t mind it. It only became a problem when she realized he never intended to help and had ridiculous expectations - two years into the relationship. I don’t get why women stay with guys like this. On paper he seems like the worst dude on the planet because you never know what you’re going to get. I suppose if good days outweigh bad it’s worth it, but I can’t imagine living that life. If you’re willingly date a guy like this, it’s your fault. Should he change? Sure. Will he? Who knows. You can’t control him. Do you know who you can control? You. Bingo.
(8) Projecting insecurities onto her
Rahiel: He lacks self-awareness and masks his low self-esteem with arrogance. His controlling manner (or lack thereof) reflects an inability to handle stress and anger. It’s clear that his indecisiveness is a reflection of his immaturity. And his critical nature is a defense mechanism that shields him from having to own up to being overly sensitive and hyper-emotional. Basically, he has issues galore. But no one would ever know that. Why? Because he projects all of his insecurities onto her, as if it’s her fault that he doesn’t like where he is in life or didn’t get the love and affirmation he desperately wanted as a child. And while she may be willing to overlook all of that and tough it out to stay with him, she’ll never be able to be who he truly wants – that overindulging or absentee parent whose lap he’s too big to sit on now. There’s nothing sexy about a man who barks at his woman but secretly wants his mama or daddy. On behalf of all women: #MenNeedTherapyAsMuchAsWeDo
Panama: You’re right. This guy sucks to the nth degree. And men do need therapy as much as women do. Everybody does. But there’s one particular part of what you wrote that stands out to me. “And while she may be willing to overlook all of that and tough it out with him…” Um, why? What in blue blazes? The proceeding 106 words were enough to make me hate any guy like this and yet some women would overlook that? #WhereDeyDoDatAt. You acknowledge that you can’t be what he wants and yet you’re still willing to try? You know he needs help but you want to be there while he hopefully fixes himself so you can say you “won” after and he marries you? Obviously, women are masochists. As a man, I’d hope that I’d think enough of myself to peace any woman who did this to me. And forget the “men have options” speech. The only option that really exists here is happiness. This guy isn’t built to make you happy. He’s built to make you miserable with him so he can feel superior. This guy sucks, but if you know it, why are you even blaming him for being who he is? You’re the one sticking around. Your fault, boo.
What are your thoughts on the feedback from women and what men may have to say in response?
Panama Jackson is a co-founder of Very Smart Brothas and co-author of Your Degrees Won't Keep You Warm At Night: The Very Smart Brothas Guide To Dating, Mating, and Fighting Crime. He believes that children are our future, loves Red Kool-aid, and really long book titles. Hall & Oates makes him happy. You can follow him on Twitter at @panamajackson. Meet Urban Cusp's Founder/Editorial Director Rahiel. You can follow her on Twitter at @RahielT.Want to support Urban Cusp? These are some of things that you can do:
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Well, the first problem is that Panama (or any man or person) may not self identify with any of these types. A woman dating him may feel he’s type 6 or type 7 but he doesn’t interpret his own actions as meaning he’s insecure or patriarchy schizo . . . So the problem with interpretation is there from jump. A man may say he’s never been any of these things, but ask women who’ve dated him and they think otherwise. So its easy for Panama to dismiss these behaviors as “you should leave him” when he doesn’t think he or anyone he knows acts like this. HOWEVER I do think women put up with a lot of crap when its unnecessary- they should just walk awa or nip the bad behavior in the bud the first time it happens.
Disclaimer: I love the points made on the list but based on some of the responses >>>I can’t stress it enough, although the list rings true and often some of the points made sting like spraying Bactine in the wound, I really believe as a female it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to have a man’s perspective, (how ever disengaged or insensitive it may sound), to encourage you to use the emergency exit every now and then. I take it as Panama reminding you of your worth, when sometimes we tend to forget and pray to be like Mariah Carey was to Precious with our current love interest. ….. Your not a social worker!….And pushing for a more in depth response from Panama would be avoiding the point….if these are deal breakers for you, no explanation needed, as Angela said “Get yo stuff, and Get Out!”. God doesn’t always explain why, but you may have dodged a bullet waiting for you down the aisle.
Truthfully, it is not your role to push a man to hold himself accountable and vice versa but I believe the article was informative to concerns that most women have. I get it, I see it everyday in the district, the ratio of men to women is underwhelming, but I hate to give you the Maya Angelou advice but “When someone tells you who they are, believe them the first time”…..He told you he was insecure, BELIEVE HIM, you don’t need to wait till he has his Sally Field “You like me, you really like me” moment. He showed you he can’t commit , even if it’s to making plans…..BELIEVE HIM…don’t wait for his attention span to finally validate how much time your worth…….He calls to check for a pulse….unless he’s calling to check up on your walk with Christ and not just listen to you breathe……CREATE the boundary, he will call as much as you answer……Sweatbox- Sorry ladies, I’m with Panama…..sweatbox dude is never the dude you like! Perhaps if Boris Kodjoe called you more than his mother, I suspect some of you would be the next Klhoe and Lamar planning a wedding after a month, but the truth is…….you weren’t that in to him to begin with. Either way, I will probably lose my “Sister Soulja” membership but honestly, we need success stories. We need couples to be vulnerable and honest and share how imperfect, non-linear, and authentic their union or courtship began. Perhaps an anonymous series on peoples “black” love stories would be great.
Finally, I swear I may not ever live to see the replies for this, but recently I heard a woman describe her fervent chase towards marriage and dating men who personified this list…..she realized when she finally was proposed to by none of the above, the real issue was why she stayed and wanted to be a “ride or die” till he saw the light……it was because she had wanted society to know she was worthy to be married when books and articles caused four alarm fires that black women like her were not in high demand. Perhaps none of you women or men struggle with it, but examine the man or woman behind the person entertaining the behaviors above.
P.S- The Geico Gekko does NOT need to call to see “How I’m livin”.
Exactly, Renegade.
To answer Green Afro Diva’s question (even though I’m not P) he is staying because he likes the sex, the companionship, the relationship just fine the way it is. He sees no need to marry because she’s not the one he wants to marry and because while he may or may not want to be married, he’s content with how things currently are.
I cringe at phrases like “make it work” “sacrifice” “thinking about someone else’s needs other than your own” when its applied to marriage because the truth is its much easier to be married the nurturing of the relationship, maintaining it when your marriage is something you view as contributing towards without losing anything. “Sacrifice” “making it work” implies a loss to the person who is giving towards the marriage.
There are so many divorced women who are left saying “I gave my all” when the truth is the person they married just didn’t value the relationship, and did not feel they needed to.
Believe men when he shows you who they are and what he values in you and the relationship. Not everyone sees marriage as a sacrifice or making it work. Some see marriage as an institution that you join willingly and with the intention of giving and nurturing your marriage with your partner–not because you have to (because society says so) but because you are more than happy and willing to do so. The desire springs forth from you willingly.
This is why it is a good thing that the man didn’t marry her knowing full well he does not want to give all the good stuff that marriage needs in order to grow, and knowing full well he doesn’t feel marriage-ly with the woman he is with. The best gift she can give herself is to believe his actions before she ends up a married woman contemplating divorce, the splitting of assets, negotiation issues on their children, et cetera.
Excuse my grammatical errors. I’m sick with the flu.
One word that we don’t talk about nearly as much as we should: character. Rarely do the 24.5 out of 25 items on our “MITH List” really dissect character. What does he stand for? What values is he unwilling to compromise? What grounds upright living for him? How does he keep his pride in check? Being with a man that has a good grasp on what a “God-centered marriage” looks like is, in my opinion, the key to
being able to sacrifice in such a way that doesn’t feel like you have to lose yourself in order to gain him.
Choices. We all have to make them and then be accountable to them. That’s why Panama’s emphasis on “well, that’s your fault for staying” cannot be dismissed as immature or insensitive. It’s the hard to swallow pill that may save us from making the worst decision of our lives.
I can’t tell you all how happy I get when I read a comment or blog site referencing these VSB and UC collabos that results in someone leaving an unhealthy relationship where they are feeling devalued. What PJ’s saying in between the lines is that it’s on us to have enough self-respect and sense of self-worth to not put up with a man who doesn’t know our worth. *Cues ole skool Alicia Keys* -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtMUIwOE2ss
@Renegade
Ummmm…. do you have a blog somewhere I can follow? Better yet, do you want to write for Urban Cusp? Lol But for real- you made some dope points and stated them in a way that sounded like mama tyring to give us the medicine that we know doesn’t feel good going down but comes from a place of love and is good for us in the long run. I especially liked: “God doesn’t always explain why, but you may have dodged a bullet waiting for you down the aisle.” That’s a sermon or 2 or 3.
And about sweatbox – I think we ALL agree with his response on that! The minute I read Panama’s response to that one – “dang, he called us out and was spot on about” may have gone through my mind. The caveat was shared on a lot of comments on Part 1 on VSB’s site – a lot of folks can admit that it’s only a sweatbox when you’re not interested but desperation is not sexy at any point regardless of who it’s coming from. Confidence that maintains humility, on the other hand, is where it’s at.
Back to where I can find your blog… lol
Thanks Rahiel!
I don’t have a blog, but admire the intent and direction of yours! Of course I support UC and if God believes a better way to support would be by writing I welcome the invitation if you ever needed it.
Not going to lie, I know how as a woman we tend to shut out someone else’s words when we don’t trust the intention or their judgement. I’m just happy to know through humor, God can still prune some vines. That Bactine stings ladies, but I promise you catching a staff infection would be much worse.
Thanks for the UC love! This is to EVERYONE who commented on the post:
I’m always amazed by the VSB audience. A great collection of smart, spit-real folks. Reading a lot of the comments on our collabo posts, I start seeing how much wisdom is out there.
Glad you all are sharing that wisdom with our community and hope you all continue to! If you ever come up with ideas on discussion topics, features, columns, posts, QOTDs, interviews, etc – never hesitate to let me know. Just go to the Contact Us or Submissions page and send an email.
Sorry P, but your answer to #6 is a pure cop out
If you can’t envision a future with the women you’re with and are unsure if you are fully ready to commit to her, the question here is why are YOU staying? If you know that you are not going anywhere, have been together for a min and are thinking about settling down, then what’s the problem? I don’t think it’s the fact that you guys are so afraid of committing to the wrong person but more like you want to keep your options open IN CASE it doesn’t work out. Because it’s bound to not work out at some point right? Dodged that bullet…
When you’re married, it does require time, energy, patience, and a lot of hard work to make it work. In a relationship, of course one could say, why put up with it, just leave because it’s easy. You don’t have to worry about kids in some cases, nor the splitting of assets, who gets what, and most importantly, having a failed marriage under your belt. And the double edged sword to this is that men don’t want to leave because of the perks of a commitment without really committing along with enjoying the free poon. Then you wonder why someone in this scenario is not happy. Maybe marriage gets such as bad rep is because GOD forbid, you actually have to put in work to make it work, sacrifice, and think about someone else’s needs over your own.
“If you can’t envision a future with the women you’re with and are unsure if you are fully ready to commit to her, the question here is why are YOU staying?” SPOT ON question! Men need to be held accountable in these ways as well.
“I don’t think it’s the fact that you guys are so afraid of committing to the wrong person but more like you want to keep your options open IN CASE it doesn’t work out.” I think you raise a point that requires some thought and attention. What are the motivating factors for men. It isn’t always sex – it goes deeper than that a lot of times. And what might be the full range of those motivating factors?
” a woman can only control herself and can’t force a man to do anything. ”
I’ll even add an amendment to this. Even other men cannot force a man to do anything. I said this to remove the argument that this is about gender.
Having said that…..I think wanting a man to change when he doesn’t want to change is more about our ego. After all if he is cool with how things are, and we are the one complaining, it may mean that we are unhappy that we can’t control how he is, how he feels and what he does.
A person who wants to control what her man does and determine what he ought to do will want him to be criticized/punished/chastised for not doing what she wants, never mind that he has every right to decide what he wants, how he should behave and what he values from the relationship.
Why would a man need to change his behavior since:
1. He’s grown and has free will to choose exactly how he wants to behave and knows what he wants from his interaction with the woman he is dating??
2. He is getting what he wants from the woman and the relationship?? He is cool with things as they are. He is not the one complaining, she is.
Again, if a woman is complaining about a man’s behavior but still holding onto that man–still wanting to be in his face–still wanting to be in a relationship with him–even though he doesn’t respect her nor the relationship and he is perfectly content with that setup–then WHO is the person in that relationship who is unhappy & complaining??
Who is the person with the grievance??
Yes, I thought so…as dude is happy with what he has, what he is doing and how he is doing it. Dude is not the one asking for relationship advice.
As a woman, shoot as a person, I do not have the right to determine for and dictate to a man what is best for him, what he should want out of a relationship and decide that he should change his behavior (when he clearly doesn’t want to behave differently) simply because I’m unhappy with it.
He is not my child. I don’t want to interact with him as if he’s my child. I want to be happy. So if he’s content with things and I am not, time for me to exit the relationship. No “It’s not fair….why won’t you tell him to change…”
I would need to suck it up and exit & find a man who is more to my liking.
If he’s not giving me what I want, and doesn’t want to, then why in God’s great universe am I staying with him? Why am I keeping myself from going to the man who wants to give the same thing I want to receive and vice versa?
It is not that woman are being criticized or blamed. It’s that we have to wear our big girl drawers at all times, even when in a relationship with a man who doesn’t do it for us. Wearing big girl drawers means owning our own shit, instead of throwing it at the person we complained to, and then lobbing it at the person who is cool with how things are.
I really like the emphasis you placed on control and free will, because I think it’s at the core of all of what we’re talking about here. A lot of women get stuck in the mentality: “If only you did x,y,z, then I would be happy.” Which leaves a lot of men feeling like our happiness seems to be contingent upon them changing who they are in order to meet our expectations. And as Panama and so many of the men have shown – that often creates resentment and all the more refusal to change. “Either love me or leave me alone,” as Jay-Z said, is essentially what Panama and COUNTLESS other men seem to say and feel.
A book that I read 2 years ago was critical in shifting my approach on this matter of control. It’s called “Choice Theory: A New Psychology of Personal Freedom” by William Glasser. While it’s pretty technical and irrelevant in some areas – it can be overall transformative. I highly recommend it to folks, esp. individuals who habitually find themselves trying to control others or basing their happiness on what others do.
The core message of the book is that “we choose everything we do, including the misery we feel. Other people can neither make us miserable nor make us happy.” The author argues that how we respond to what people say and do (the choices we make) is what matters most. The ides is that if we place emphasis on our responses (internal control), then that will give us tremendous personal freedom VS basing our happiness on someone else’s actions (external control). Now, that doesn’t change the fact that the person may have wronged us but it shifts how we live out from that day forward – as a victim who lost something that rests in another person’s hands or a conqueror who gained the information needed to make a wise and liberating decision.
I really don’t mean to get too technical (or preachy for that matter). My larger point is that this is larger than my opinion vs. Panama’s. It’s larger than “are they blaming the women or men?” It’s about where control rests in the situation. We can either surrender our happiness over to someone else’s power or reclaim it for ourselves once and for all.
Another thing–I don’t know if I agree with the commitment-phobe as a general cause for number 1 (though I HAVE met a couple)–but there are deeefinitely CONFUSED men. THESE are the real problem. (I care, but… I love you, but… I have feelings for you, but…) <=these men.
Okay… So my take on women being accountable for leaving. Sometimes, we don't (bad). Sometimes, we do (yay). The problem is, whether we leave or don't, that's still a REACTION to BS that we shouldn't have to deal with in the first place–it's a reaction and not something that can always be prevented. It's not always about GRRRL I LEFT HIS A$$ GIRL POWER HIGH FIVE–it's about yeah I left but he still said women are money-grubbing a$$ clowns and that's STILL annoying to have to deal with*.
And of course, some women do stay. I don't see anything in the post (minus Rahiel's *IF* you stay in one scenario) saying that women necessarily do stay–regardless of the woman's choice AFTER the violation, it shouldn't happen. Cuddling and I love yous and expensive dinners but not relationship–should not happen. Be a wife a businesswoman and a mother but wait on my hand and foot in subservience because of my almighty penis–shouldn't happen. Like, okay. We're showing "tough love" telling women to leave. WHERE is "tough love" saying men stop acting like a boyfriend and expecting her NOT TO THINK you're a boyfriend? Since when does anyone completely ignore actions for words? Where is "tough love" saying that a man shouldn't act like a rude arrogant bish if his woman (tactfully) doesn't agree with him in public?
Bottom line, if someone gives me issues I'll leave (eventually). That does not give any man a valid reason to do STUPID isht to me in the interim. So… Does anyone here want to address the men in these situations for the DUMB stuff that they sometimes try to make us put up with? I'm really tired of the whole implication that women are responsible for policing men's actions with their REactions. Because that's pretty much where it ends up–someone's mama didn't hug (or smack) them enough and it makes them want to test everything and everyone. Ugh. Chill.
(*exaggerated example… but I mean duh)
All 8 of my points were about the insensitive, selfish, hurtful things that men do to women that should be acknowledged and stopped (with so many more that I can name). But regardless of what laundry list we can come up with – the questions will always come back on us: “are you putting up with it and if so, WHY?” See my response to A Woman’s Eyes about control and choices. I believe that progressive-minded women have to know that they have the power to take ownership over their happiness- to know what they want and be willing to wait for it, believing the best is yet to come. As long as that’s the way one thinks – there’s hope and infinite possibilities. The minute it’s about another individual changing, then it’s gridlock. I REFUSE TO BE TRAPPED BY ANOTHER PERSON’S UNACCEPTABLE WEAKNESSES/ SHORTCOMINGS – that’s the bottom line.
This is not to say we should never stay and fight. But sometimes we fight for men that we don’t really want in the first place. If we have to change so much of who he is, then do we REALLY want him? Of course, not. Guess who we want and who we’re trying to change him into… THE MITH
See part 1 and 2 of that VSB and UC if you haven’t already. There’s a hug difference between a man making a mistake and/or having a few bad habits vs. a man who we seek to change so much that he would have a different character and way of life by the time we were done with him.
Wow! Rahiel sounds like a woman who’s taken a few psychology courses. I think her complaints resonate with women who have dated some of these types of men. I gotta be honest though; I don’t typically run into these folks. Maybe it’s because of the circles I tend to roll in.
“It’s not commitment that’s the problem; it’s being committed to the chick he hoped he’d never end up with that’s the problem. Only difference between men and women in this regard is that you all hitch your wagon to the train as soon as you determine that you like him. Perhaps if you all spent more time vetting the men you’re “building” with and “just kicking it” with, you all would understand where we’re coming from. ”
Not gonna lie; that one stung. But it’s super true. I haven’t planned my wedding or anything, but I know i have a tendency to think long-term way faster than what is probably healthy. It doesn’t help that when I go on a date, my girlfriends create their own forecasts for you.
Great post, yet again.
I actually have taken Psychology courses. Yep! Took them in the School of Hard Knocks. Learned a thing or two from a brotha or two and from a female friend or two while I was there…. Excuse me for me being so corny
I feel you on that sting. Almost everyone has fallen for the okie doke at some point or another. I gotta quote words that I’ve heard that are words to live by here: “Never make someone a necessity who makes you an option.”
I agree completely. Thankfully, I’m not finding any of these scenarios familiar. For ladies I know or gents.
Four other ways I’ve seen a relationship aborted:
9) Indiscretion: While I don’t want or expect commitment within the first 8 or 80 days, neither party needs to come off like they’re living the Playboy channel. Being overly open about being on the dating scene-even if you don’t cross any deal breaker lines- is a surefire way for me to bounce along and away. Not to mention, there’s a 75% chance whoever else you’re dating is three or fewer degrees of separation away. This just comes across as immature and in need of some drank.
10) Gentlemanlinesslessness: I’m too grown with too many friends who treat me like a lady to consider, even for a moment, dating a man who won’t pull out chairs, walk street-side, pick me up, open doors, pick up tabs, escort me in, carry heavy stuff, etc. Not on some cater to me stuff, just on some my Dad’s in my life and I know a good man stuff. And yes, I’m that woman who will sneak the waiter my card before you have a chance to pay when I want. (Usually when I’ve chosen a wildly expensive spot. I know that sucks to your asmar for me to choose $$$$ when you’d have gone $$.)
11) Try to impress me: This is not romance. It isn’t caring or thoughtful. It’s insecurity, rearing its ugly head. Por ejemplo: Flashing cards/cash/connections, bragging about vacation homes, travel, irrelevant knowledge and accomplishments. Also masquerades as thoughtlessly overdone (expensive) dates. If you think sequestering me with you in a hot-air balloon, then asking me to hold your Tag Heuer watch so you can shower the world below with Perrier Jouet while I take photos with your iPhone is a good idea… Newsflash. I’m leaping in prayer and faith from that balloon buddy.
12) Husbandry: Guess what? I’m actually NOT interested in marrying you unless you and my Dad have already spoken and I’m wearing your engagement ring. A third cousin to trying to impress me, this move is really, really sad. There are men out there who cain’t wait to get married. So they’ll show you how responsible they are, talk about their five-year plan (which of course includes getting married with a pointed, longing look at you) and basically spend the date on a live demonstration of wediness: http://www.ivillage.com/4-signs-mans-ready-marriage-and-4-hes-not/4-a-283721.
Very sad. This is not attractive.
These are the dating woes I and my pals gripe about.
“Gentlemanlinesslessness” took several reads. That word puts a hurtin’ on the eyes. LOL
Thanks for the add-ons! Your list shows how diverse sista’s experiences are in dating.
While Rahiel made good points about those trifling men out there, I’m going to agree with Panama. Women need to realize that they have a choice. If he’s not doing you right or if you’re not happy, then LEAVE THE RELATIONSHIP. It’s that simple.
And thank you Panama for holding women accountable. There are some relationship writers that like to put the entire responsibility of the relationship on men. I disagree with that vehemently. There are two people in the relationship and accountability for that relationship needs to be shared.
Great! I look forward to it. Thanks for responding, guys.
Rahiel seems very intelligent and well thought out. I enjoy reading what she writes. I like the cross-overs or what ever you all refer to them as.
With that said, I agree with Panama like y’all don’t know. Really, it’s just because he is saying what I think about it anyway. Like…exactly. I won’t deny that there is a trace of latent misogyny in my thinking. However, I think that it is more a condition of the social realities and less or a personal slight or lack of respect.
Allow me to explain. In a personal view, an individual can accomplish any given task. But all things are not equal in this World. Given that, a woman attempting the same task as a man is going to have a different set of probabilities attached to her chances for success. There is no real way to form an applicable thought pattern and be a viable perspective for actively interacting with life as a man. The best I know to do is refine and revise the thoughts I see. Ultimately, as men, we end up very close to what P presents as his perspective.
I guess I just felt dirty for agreeing with P. lol
Thanks for the kudos. Great time to encourage you to connect with Urban Cusp so you can be a part of two awesome communities. We love getting new fans!
I’m smiling at your build-up to “With that said, I agree with Panama like y’all don’t know.” That is HILARIOUS. Read my last response to DCDistrictDiva. I was just saying to her that I think many (won’t dare to say most) men would agree with Panama. And that was exactly the point of the dialogue – to highlight how differently our views on these situations can be.
You know what this all reminds me of? The episode of Martin when everyone gets to tell their version of the “first time Martin and Gina met” story. Let Gina tell it and she was Ms. Don Diva who had nerdy Martin sprung. Let Martin tell it and he was Billy Dee Williams 2.0 making Ms. Busted feel better about herself. Panama and I are perhaps creating the “memory cloud experience” of how we can look back on the same exact event and see it two completely different ways.
Let it be known that I am stamping COPYRIGHT on the entire paragraph above before someone tries to steal it as a Facebook status. LOL I’ll stop patting myself on the back now…
let me address a couple things.
1. single or taken, i don’t see the logic behind putting your relationship status on facebook. people are too nosy for me and i’m not going to make it any easier for them to be in my business. its not that i’m hiding anything. the people who need to know who i’m with will know. besides that go see a man about a dog.
2. “He’s making it clear that his body wants her, but his heart and mind are still unsure about her.”
the power of sex has and always will be with women. if he’s not holding up his end of the bargain in some standard you set for yourself as far as a relationship is concerned then who’s fault is it that you continually sleep with him? a man is going to do the bare minimum possible to get the maximum results. this is known but women continually fall for the okie doke.
3. as far as number 7 i know a couple of dudes like that but in reality those men aren’t anyone that i would imagine any women close to me or with any sense would want to date.
bruh…you’re fighting a losing argument apparently around here today.
lol. women don’t like being told that its their fault for staying when its really our fault for making them feel bad for staying.
looking at you Cougar.
don’t really care what they like. i’m not trying to date them. i’m telling my opinion…you know from the perspective of a man. *shrug*
“don’t really care what they like. i’m not trying to date them.” I don’t know if you want that in writing – accessible to billions of people online. I only say that because one of the worst things that a man can ever say is “I don’t care.” You gotta care and unless you’re married – I imagine you want to date “them” at some point. Might as well try to understand them and minimize stress.
i think my comment was taken out of context. when i said “them” i didn’t mean women in general. i meant the women who already commented before me on this post who might have a problem with my viewpoint.
and when i said i don’t care i really meant i could care less if they don’t like my opinion.
Yeah. That was a hilarious example of over-generalization.
I honestly thought that was what you meant but I didn’t think you could be dissing the women who commented that hard. My bad. I see now that you were. Lol. Told P today that VSB folks have no cut cards. Let me know if that requires translation.
On one hand, yes. No one likes to be told repeatedly from strangers that their decision making skills are lacking. This can’t be a surprise that people would have something to say about that.
The issue with blame: I think there should be MANY more cases where the solution is, “LEAVE that man, girl.” And they stay. I know. I’ve stayed. It’s not so easy to go. We’re not quite so objective when we’re in the situation. I think most women would appreciate a little more consideration of that fact, instead of acting like it’s all black and white and everyone is thinking clearly in matters of the heart. Lucky you, if you are.
I also think telling someone who was legitimately hurt that it’s all their fault they got hurt, is problematic. Technically, yes, they stayed, so they put THEMSELVES through that. But ACTUALLY, the dude DID DO SOMETHING TO THEM that was problematic. Lets not downplay that like it’s just secondary to everything else. Sure, she stayed, but those dudes were grimey. By focusing entirely on the woman who LET herself get hurt, you’re partially negating the wrongdoing in the first place. “Well, you should know better to get with a cheater.” Are you so insensitive to act as if the CHEATING doesn’t need to be addressed?
That’s what she’s saying, that’s how a lot of women feel. No, don’t play the victim. But y’all, you might want to stop BLAMING the injured party in the scenario. It just makes it seem like you’re teaming up with the bad guy, or worse, saying the bad guy wasn’t even BAD, but just “doing what he does”, and she was STUPID for staying. See how that sucks to hear?
“The issue with blame: I think there should be MANY more cases where the solution is, “LEAVE that man, girl.” And they stay. I know. I’ve stayed…I also think telling someone who was legitimately hurt that it’s all their fault they got hurt, is problematic.”
I think the problem here is at some point it has to move beyond coddling folk who consistently continue to stay, to opt into hurtful situations: It’s self-destructive. With thankfully rare exceptions, nobody else does anything TO us we don’t allow in some way… Even if only by silent acquiescence.
The honest truth is if one chooses the wrong folks, they end up in the wrong situation. Feel bad all they want about it, but until they move on, it is entirely their fault.
Not only do we have to choose better folk, we also have to actively remove poor choices from the past, not just let them fester and cloud things.
We have to be more patient, discerning, and realistic in dating. It doesn’t work to get all up in your feelings about the first Joe-Shmoe you have chemistry with who doesn’t try to kill you upon introduction…. Repeat and rinse, then fuss at folk who tell point out the pattern and the fact that the rest of the world ain’t like that.
o_O ….Clearly stated, though the same insensitivity on which I was speaking. But some people don’t have it in them to sympathize, or even realize there is VALUE in sympathy and empathy. I’m not one of those people.
PJ? Your responses are disingenuous and intellectually lazy. Even if your objective was to spark debate. I expected more from you. This is what I expect from.some of the emotionally disturbed guys on vsb who can’t understand why nobody wants them. Claim these men are outside the norm then blame the woman for being with him? Come on. It’s so tired.
Word? Tell ‘em how you really feel. I shall respectfully disagree and say thanks for playing. By the way, I expect no less from you than that anyway.
That’s why I love you.
And since we’re being honest here…I think you’re total seeming lack of belief in any female accountability, like ever, is just as problematic. Every time we write something that even remotely insists that maybe a woman should look at herself in a situation too you get all in your chest. I understand you feel like men are always trying to get out of being wrong, but that doesn’t discount the fact that you actually do have choices in what happens in your own life no?
Cougar, Shut up. You are one to talk. Aight? I get it. You are bitter. You end up ranting on how craptacular guys are. But really, LIKE I TOLD YOU 6 FULL MONTHS AGO…spend time looking in the mirror and judging yourself. That is the ONLY person you have a right to judge. You are far too confident with such a pejorative terms & conditions of interaction.
Also, I actually would like you as a human being if you could cut the negativity to a minimum. But you won’t…it’s everybody else. I don’t make excuses for my problems. And more than anything I simply put effort into understanding my ignorances. BUT YOU, every time, same song. Let’s do better.
Wild Cougar, I don’t know your comment history on VSB besides the posts that I’ve collaborated with P on but I know you have a great pseudonym, avi, and feisty spirit.
I’m done now.
[I just wasn't going to let you two team up like that without inserting some Girl Power into the mix.]
“I’m not saying that he doesn’t exist in real life, but how he manages to snag a woman is beyond me anyway. But this guy is wrong on all kinds of levels. And real talk, he probably comes from the hood.”
1. Bait n switch. Like Rahiel said, he’ll start off on some super sweet omg I love you isht,
2. No, no, noooo–not necessarily a hood dude. Hood dudes canNOT hide it that well most of the time. Most of the times I’ve seen this it’s been an educated and VERY religious dude. Bonus points if he’s southern. But ohhh do these guys exist.
They definitely exist and they come from all social, economic and educational backgrounds. Not at all limited to the hood. I’m with Purplenat on this- definitely think this tends to be the case with educated and religious brothas the most. This has a lot to do with claiming to want a “Liberated Go-Getter” in rhetoric but wanting a “Trophy Woman” at heart. Time tells all.
I’m not sure I get what the point of this exercise is. She says what’s wrong with a guy and the response is not how that guy can change or the steps he can take to not be that anymore but instead it’s just “well you’re dumb for being with that guy in the first place”? I’d REALLY love to see an article where men actually 1) take responsibility for the wrong things they’re doing; and then 2) are supplied steps with how to not do those wrong things instead of the answer being stupid Black women should stop putting up with it.
Every post (as we all know) serves its own purpose. This wasn’t a “how to fix it” post because there’s also value in first seeing if we agree that anything is wrong. Who knows what we’ll write about in the future, but in reading the comments on VSB’s site today – it was clear to me that the dialogue on this topic alone was quite valuable and worthwhile.
I should add that perspective was the driving force behind this post. How do our perceptions about how things are playing out affect our assumptions, expectations, communication, actions, etc.?
You know, I feel you. I understand women get tired of hearing men say, “well stop dating that dude.” but here’s my issue with that line of logic. you probably SHOULD stop dating that dude. Sure that guy needs to change what he’s doing but when i’m talking to somebody or giving advice I can’t tell that other person who’s not there what to do. I can only deal with whats in front of me. And to me…and forgive me if it steps on toes…if you tell me that you’re dating the insecure, blah blah blah dude etc I’m going to tell you to leave him. It’s a problem for you and you just want him to get better. But if he’s proven that he won’t why would you expect different?
And that’s a real question.
I get it. Men dont seem to accept enough responsibility. I know. but if you stick around in a situation that obviously isn’t any good waiting on him to realize what a good thing he’s got…you start to lose any sympathy i have. and that happens to anybody. if you’re homegirl CONSTANTLY complained about her man, at some point you’d tell her to bounce right?
Yes, I would tell her to leave the situation. However, in a conversation that is supposed to be both men and women discussing relationship issues and analyzing specific situations in dating, WHY is there only analysis for what *women* ought to do? It just seems like another imbalanced opportunity to blame women for what’s happening in a relationship while not saying anything at all to the men– no advice, no suggestions, no condemnation, nothing! When the answer to every relationship problem is “well women shouldn’t be stupid enough to put up with it,” that is once again making women shoulder all of the burden for everything wrong in our community and I can’t see how that is helpful at all.
The entire post from the female perspective is “condemnation” of things that men do that they may not be cognizant of and the advice/suggestion is quite simple and evident – 1) RECOGNIZE that you do these things and 2) STOP doing them. Now, a how-to-guide may soon come but this one is pretty self-explanatory.
Panama’s responses took little ownership which may be disappointing to a lot of women, but I think, in all honesty, accurately reflects how many men would respond, as proven by the comments from men on VSB’s site on Part 1. His responses speak to how men justify these acts, which for me is key, because it is quite clear from his points that the push is for personal accountability – a woman can only control herself and can’t force a man to do anything. We may say stop but they say “but you keep letting me do it.” Now this may seem pretty basic but how many women are stressing over some man who won’t change when his response is “but you’re still here so it can’t be that bad.” It’s a harsh, need-to-be-told reality. But I totally feel you on the need to offer tangible suggestions – look out for our 3rd collaboration and it may be there.
I’m not sure your critique is applicable to this particular post, but it IS applicable to 5011 OTHER blog posts on 5011 OTHER blogs, and I cosign wholeheartedly.
Appreciate you for saying that KitKatCuty84 (that’s a pretty special name you came up with there btw). I know the “blame women game” is being played everywhere but this isn’t it. This is an effort to take the conversations that women have with their girls and men have with their homies and put it in a public forum so we can have them with EACH OTHER. To learn how the other thinks – whether or not we like it or agree. I, personally, have no desire to be left in the dark about how the opposite sex thinks. Ignorance is not bliss.